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Debate on the Bible

Between Punkerslut
and the Church of
Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints

The Faith of the Church is Based on Violence
Image: By Punkerslut,
Based on a Photograph by PawełS,
Released under Creative Commons
"Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Generic" License

Date: July 12, 2010

Debate #1

A representative will be with you shortly.
Agent [Bryan] is ready to assist you.
Bryan: Hi
Bryan: How are you?
Punkerslut: Hello hello.
Punkerslut: I'm all right. Yourself?
Bryan: I am doing great, thanks.
Bryan: What brings you to Mormon.org?
Punkerslut: A friend of my recommended it.
Punkerslut: mine*
Bryan: Ok great
Punkerslut: So, Mormonism believes in the Bible, Old Testament and New, and then some more stuff by a new guy, right?
Bryan: Yes we believe in the Bible and the Book of Mormon an ancient record of the western hemisphere.
Punkerslut: Yeah, but it was found in like, 1850 in America. If it was from those who came from Christian Europe, then it couldn't be older than 1600.
Bryan: No actually none of that is true.
Punkerslut: I don't know... I mean, are you saying there were Jews or Christians in America from before Europeans discovered it?
Punkerslut: I mean, that would have to be the case, for a continuation of the Old and New Testaments to be a genuine, ancient record.
Bryan: Andy, here is the intro for the Book of Mormon so you can learn more about it
Bryan: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction
Punkerslut: Right, right... Yeah, I'm reading that. It was first published in the US in 1830, the Book of Mormon. Buuuuut.... if it's authors were human, they would have to know about Judaism and Christianity to speak in regards to it. And, we know that no humans in America could do this until roughly 1400 or 1500. So, it couldn't be older than that, because there were no Jews or Christians in America to write it in 2500 BC.
Bryan: Actually that is not true Andy
Punkerslut: It seems incredibly unlikely that a document like that would be carried to America. Impossible according to anthropology, which has rather discovered such documents around Jerusalem, and not in the US.
Bryan: Sorry to tell you that
The chat session has ended.

Date: July 12, 2010

Debate #2

Welcome to Mormon.org chat.
A representative will be with you shortly.
Agent [Kollin] is ready to assist you.
Kollin: Hello, and thank you for coming to Mormon.org! My name is Kollin and I am here to help you as best as I can. I am quite busy at the moment, so it may take me some time to answer you. Please feel free to ask any questions that you have, and I will get to you as quick as I can. Thanks for your patience!
Punkerslut: Thank you, Kollin.
Punkerslut: I have a question about the Bible. In Chapter 31 of Numbers, Moses orders his troops to massacre a village, and then he says, "But the virgin girls, keep them alive for yourselves!" Was he condoning rape and murder?
Kollin: I don't know
Punkerslut: It sounds like it.
Kollin: ok
Punkerslut: They killed cattle, men, women, and children. It sounds pretty gruesome.
Punkerslut: Why would god do that?
Punkerslut: It's an actual part of the Christian religion. But Jesus is supposed to be about compassion, right?
The chat session has ended.

Date: July 13, 2010

Debate #3

Welcome to Mormon.org chat.
A representative will be with you shortly.
Agent [Jemima] is ready to assist you.
Punkerslut: Hello.
Agent [Kaitlyn] has joined the chat.
Jemima: Hello, my name is Jemima.
Kaitlyn: hi I'm kaitlyn
Jemima: how are you?
Punkerslut: I'm Andy/Andrew, either works. I'm good, how are you?
Jemima: We're good too! thanks for asking.:)
Jemima: what brings you to the site andy?
Punkerslut: Well, I'm looking through the Bible, and there seems to be a lot of good things about compassion. Like Jesus' teachings on "Do unto others," or "What you do to the least of these," etc....
Punkerslut: But, when I look in the Old Testament, I find some really terrible things. Like, god ordering the massacre of a village, including women and children, in chapter 31 of numbers.
Punkerslut: That doesn't seem right, does it?
Punkerslut: It's in the Bible, so it has to be right, right?
Jemima: ... we follow the bible (king james version). We follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.. that's why he came to set an example for us...
Punkerslut: Right, but, in chapter 31 of Numbers, Moses says "Kill all the men, women, and children, but the young girls who have not known men, keep alive for yourselves!" Doesn't that seem a bit excessive?
Kaitlyn: we dont always know the meaning of all things
Punkerslut: Well, the last part is a little vague, sure. But the orders for killing aren't vague.
Punkerslut: I mean, I want ever-lasting peace of heart, mind, and soul. How am I going to attain it when that is in the book that I live my life by?
Jemima: i understand...
Jemima: we all want that..
Jemima: its what the lord commanded moses at thattime because its needed to happen...
Jemima: we don't know the reason..
Jemima: god knows...
Punkerslut: I don't know if there is a good reason for killing children, though. It doesn't seem compatible with justice and compassion, what Jesus was about.
Jemima: i know... but i has been done already...
Jemima: what we should focus on is the most important...our savior his examples and teachings...
Jemima: we don't know the reasone for all things that is happening but it will be revealed to us god in his time...
Punkerslut: But that's what all religions say.
Punkerslut: Isn't it maybe possible, even likely, that Moses wasn't inspired by god to do that, and he just made it up, to justify his selfish actions?
Jemima: yeah...because we should focus on the things that would matter most in our lives....no one can change what heppened in the past... its past... but we can do something for the future...
Punkerslut: Right, but, the future should be based on a philosophy of love and compassion, not a religion that has a god ordering child-murder.
Punkerslut: This isn't some kind of relationship that improves over time. I want the absolute, undivided truth about the universe and life.
Jemima: yeah..so we should base it in the teachings of JEsus Christ..
Jemima: This is what we have...
Punkerslut: Yeah, but Jesus was prophesied by the Old Testament.
Jemima: yes...
Punkerslut: Without it, without the long record of killing, like in Exodus, there would be no Christ.
Jemima: and its true cos he came.. it said in the scriptures that thru him the law of moses was fulfilled...so what we shuld focus onis our savior...
Punkerslut: Accepting Christ, then, really seems like you're accepting those mass murders of the past, and not really embracing love; since accepting Christ, means accepting the prophesies of the past as accurate.
Punkerslut: Because, if you accept Christ, you admit the prophecies of the Old Testament to be true, which means... that God acted with such vicious behavior.
Jemima: that's part of it... we have to put in our minds most important things... as i said..it already happen...
Punkerslut: I mean, if he's all so ready to leave the past behind, what's up with eternal torment?
Punkerslut: That village of children got wiped out, but they died quickly. About 32,000, according to the book. That seems compassionate compared to making every non-believer suffer eternally.
Kaitlyn: you can pray about it
Punkerslut: Pray about hell?
Punkerslut: Should I pray that god destroys hell and doesn't punish anyone for non-belief?
Jemima: you ask him anything...
Punkerslut: Think he'll do it?
Kaitlyn: answer your prayers yes if you have faith
Punkerslut: So, he'll abolish hell, and everyone can get into heaven? That's all I gotta do?
Jemima: you hvae to trust him first..
Punkerslut: Why hasn't someone done that already then? Does nobody trust god?
Jemima: we do...
Punkerslut: Then why haven't you told him to knock it off with the eternal damnation thing?
Jemima: we just encourage you to keep reading the scriptures and pray about it...
Punkerslut: I was reading the New Testament...
Jemima: we have to go now... but thank you for your time andrew..
Jemima: good!
Punkerslut: Thank you.
Jemima: keep on reading....
Punkerslut: Ephesians, 6:5, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters." Of course I'll keep reading about the brutality.
Jemima: thank you for your questions..and your time..
Punkerslut: Thank you, too. Good bye.
Jemima: bye.... don't forget to pray
Agent [Kaitlyn] has left the chat.
The chat session has ended.

Date: July 13, 2010

Debate #4

Welcome to Mormon.org chat.
A representative will be with you shortly.
Agent [Kollin] is ready to assist you.
Kollin: Hello, my name is Kollin.How may I help you?
Punkerslut: Hello, I have some questions about the New Testament.
Kollin: ok
Punkerslut: In Ephesians 6:5, it says "Slaves, obey your earthly masters, as you would obey Christ!" Does that mean god believes in slavery?
Kollin: I'm not sure.
Punkerslut: I mean, that's what it says.
Punkerslut: I understand obeying Christ, because we are obeying the prince of compassion. But slavery?
Kollin: No, it says to obey. It doesn't mean that He condones it
Punkerslut: But if he tells them to obey, isn't he assuring the rule of their masters? Their freedom really requires resisting their master.
The chat session has ended.

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